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Rodger Tutt
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Read this, especially the last paragraph, and tell me if you still think the same as you expressed in your last post.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-saved.htm
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be…
You said "In universalism, the word "eternal" means "without end" when it comes to salvation, but not when referring to damnation, even though the same word is used for both and in the same context (Matt. 25:46)."
This is simply not true.
Here is…
The one thing we universalist all have in common is that we all believe that sooner or later God is going to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills.
http://www.godfire.net/eby/rest…
ok sir - God bless you!
A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY
A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that…
Notice the name Ray Prinzing towards the bottom of the list on the link on my last post called
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His writings can be Googled up and re…
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html
IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well kn…
like i said - we keep going around and around and around - until one of us gets tire of postings, at least i give you new responses 99% of the time hahahaah but you keep posting the same sad list of web sites. you shared the below responds already a…
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
I believe that the strongest influence will prevail every time WITHOUT EXCEPTION
When it comes to what we believe, the strongest sets of influence al…
Origen, Unorthodox Church Father
Origen (185-254) was an early church Father and apologist for Christianity. He was heavily influenced by Platonic and Gnostic thought. As a consequence his defense of the faith tended to sacrifice important teachin…
In 1793, Universalism emerged as a particular denomination of Christianity in the United States, eventually called the Universalist Church of America. Unitarian Universalism emerged from two separate denominations: Unitarianism and Universalism.
Un…
I am very aware of what I am posting, but I am just doing what you are doing and you continue to post the same thing over and over again, is like if we are playing a completion game to see who get sick of going around and around and around. hahahaha…
This is the same message you posted on my other thread.
I posted my response to this message there.
Like I said before, all of the arguments you posted by Matt Slick, owner of the CARM website, have been refuted in deatil at the following two links…
And that is exactly what we think about people who believe as you do.
People like you have invented your own interpretation according to your human understanding of the Bible and have created a different god from the God of the Bible.
Here is what…
Profile Information
- Which Praise Chapel Do You Attend?
- none
- What is your Church WebSite?
- http://www.saviourofall.org/
- What is your website?
- http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
- Tells us about yourself?
- 70 year old Canadian retiree, happily married 46 years, with a son 41, and a daughter 40
Like to share on forums what has been the most help to me during my 70 years of living.
Comment Wall (8 comments)
- At 2:45am on May 25, 2009,
Rodger Tutt said…
- WHAT THE WRATH OF GOD WILL ACHIEVE
GOD THE “JUDGE”
The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth.
After death comes the judgment, yes, but that judgment will result in kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement for those who need it.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Kolasis aionion doesn't save. Only Jesus saves. But it will condition the rebellious sinner to sooner or later reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided by having them temporarily experience the consequences of their rebellion.
Unlike humans with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
God the "Judge," has the desire, the ability, and the determination, to sooner or later, successfully save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved.
This is the kind of God that we universal transformationists see in a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible.
When it comes to what the Bible teaches about it, the key issue is this.
For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/godislove.html
Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see:
- At 4:45am on May 21, 2009,
David Velasquez said…
- Rodger - we have our differences in doctrine but over all, if you love Jesus, well - you are my brother in Christ. So be blessed.
- At 5:18am on May 18, 2009,
David Velasquez said…
- The wrath of God is not a popular topic.
What is the Wrath of God:The wrath of God is an old English word defines in the dictionary as deep intense anger and resignation. Such is wrath and wrath is an attribute of God. The modern habit throughout the Christian church is to play this subject down.
Divine wrath has become taboo and most Christians do not even want to talk about it.
Wrath because is indicates a lack of self control, we think that it is incompatible with the character of God. The first Christians to think that wrath is not something we should attribute to God, was the liberals and their theologians.
How do we respond to hard truth in the bible, doctrines that make some recoiled? We want to say as you do Rodger. My God is too loving to send someone to hell etc .My God is too loving to be as He says He is in the bible is really what you are saying. You are arguing from one attribute to another.
My God is so loving that I am going to trust what He says of his judgments and believe what He says, not to cancel out the unpleasant doctrines but to understand that we are finite and may not be able to grasp the big picture.
Some say we glory in the cruelty of God but failed to mention how the preacher is trying to informed and keep people from a place of separation from God. Wrath is not a function of cruel uncontrolled anger but the expression against that which is wrong. WHEN WE CEASE TO BE MORILY INDIGNANT ABOUT SIN, WE ARE BEING LESS LOVING. Can you sit through the abortion of a child and feel nothing is wrong? Well if you can then something is wrong! No moral indignation? God’s wrath is an expression of God’s justice.
There are 20 words to describe the wrath of God in the Old Testament only. God’s wrath is mention fivehundred and eighty times in the O.T. only, so it must be important. Some want to do away from preaching God’s judgment and wrath because it will turn away seekers. This doctrine does not keep us from preaching the Gospel. The doctrine of the wrath of God sets the stage for our appreciation of the Love and Grace of God in a way that no other doctrine does. Do not allow your own fears to shape who God is or what He does, but allow his word to shape you.
Mathew 3: 12 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Who spoke that verse and who did is the verse talking about Rodger? How many websites are you going to send me to. 10 or 20? Can you answer me from your biblical knowledge?
John the Baptist said this, and he said this about Jesus!!! Jesus would burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. I did not fine your websites dealing with this scripture, they are selective in which scriptures they use, of course they have to be to back up what they believe.
Matthew 7: says that it will be Jesus himself who will say: 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
So how do we explain this one away Rodger?
Romans 1:18-21 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened
Men who suppress the truth. Rodger you do not want to be among those men who suppress the truth.
Romans 2:5-8 5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
So is he Rodger – is God unjust in bringing his wrath on us?
Romans 5 9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Romans 9:22 (New International Version) 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
Romans 12:19 (New International Version)19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[a]says the Lord.
So what do we do with this God Rodger?
Hebrews 12 28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."[f]
Revelation 14:10 (New International Version)10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
How do we work this out of the bible? This was not a doctrine that was made up by uneducated angry preachers Rodger. It is the Word of God.
19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.Revelation 19:15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
If God was not indignant and angry about sin, than God would not be the God of the bible, yes I know Rodgers that the theologians that support the God of your doctrine do away with this God by telling us how the Greek has been misinterpret by the Arminian or Reformed theologians and is not until this new theologians discovered new revelations, can we be set free from all this lies, come on, please, give me a break.
The Wrath of God is moral not evil. Wrath is the exercise of justice. There will be no one in hell who does not deserve hell. But there will be only one in heaven that deserves to be there.
- At 6:00pm on May 14, 2009,
David Velasquez said…
- Have you prayed something along this lines about hell or did you just discard God's word due to your difficulties with hell/ "God -- I'm having a hard time believing an all-loving God would allow people to suffer in a hell of torment for all eternity. Yes - I believe your Bible doesn't lie . . . but God - I'm having a hard time believing. If Satan is causing this unbelief, please show me. I'm asking and trusting You to show me the reality of hell in scripture."
- At 5:51pm on May 14, 2009,
David Velasquez said…
- "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement" is that what the scriptures below are talking about? Does it sound like God is correcting those in hell? Where does it say he is correcting?
- At 5:46pm on May 14, 2009,
David Velasquez said…
- please explain to me what all the scriptures below mean.
Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.
Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
- At 11:48am on May 13, 2009,
Robert Jimenez said… - Rodger, If you are friendly, and open to other possible interpretations of the bible, and are willing to engage in a peaceful manner then I have no other real issues.
My concern is that there have been several attempts by others to simply propagate their ministries and are not looking for any genuine Christian fellowship. I don't mind your views (I don't agree with them either), but as long as that is not your only purpose in being here then it is fine.
I think that if you follow the Rules of Engagement that we outlined for the Theology Group you will be fine.
I do greatly appreciate your willingness to cooperate.
- At 3:39pm on May 12, 2009,
David Velasquez said…
- i commented on your discussion and i wanted to stop by to tell you that your findings and believes are very wrong according to scripture, but that you are free to believe whatever you want, i mean God allows us to even worship Satan if we so like. Read the word apart from any men's interpretation of it an after that tell me what the Spirit leads you to believe. Be bless
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