psuedo

[TATDADDY aka kevin woltkamp]

Can a false conversion look genuine?
Can a Genuine Convert at times act like a false convert?

[Christopher Chapman]

i see u erased the lord lord topic, i will try to reword my questions from there.

1. Gal 5:19-21 - can we assure anyone walking in a life of sinthatthey will inherit the kingdom of god?

2. 1 john 2:2 - can we hold we be assured we love god if we dont have a lifestyle of obedience to god?

3. 1 john 3:8-9 - can we call anyone living alifestyle of sin a child of god, or shud we say they are of the devil?

4. James 2:14-17 - can one be saved without savivg faith? Can we say someone that is not producig the fruits of a living faith has saving faith and is therefore saved?

5. Rom 6:16 and 22-23 -are those living a lifestyle of sin slaves of god or of sin? Do slaves of sin attain eternal life or the oppisite, death. ( please note that death here is not just blessings, but is the death that is contrasted with eternallife)

My definition of practicing sin was also erased. But by practicing something we are getting better at it. So if we are progressively getting better at sin and worse at riighteousness, we are practicing sin. If we are getting in more and more bondage we are practicing sin. Again this is different than falling down in a transgression, but it is living in ahabit of transgession.

I think these verses give us clear guidence about the identity and destiny that live in sin. That is a good place to start for the topic at hand. Thenwe can discuss if they were evertrue converts. Cause we can know that at the time they are in sin they are notchildren of god.

Gbu

[Christopher Chapman]

- i wud say it is difficult and somewhat irrelevant to try and conlude someone was previously a false convert.

- i believe true believers at time act (transgess) like unbelievers, but a true believer does not live like an unbeliever. Someone living in sin, that is that their default is not to obey, but disobey, is not a truely saved person.the passages i referenced above are some of the passages i wud use to defend my opinion.

[David Velasquez]

Chris,

1. Gal 5:19-21There is a humongous difference between a child of God who falls into habitual sin and an unregenerate person. The huge difference lies in how God views and treats them and the internal turmoils a believer experiences. No Christian will be sinless in this life. We can attain great maturity and holiness, but not complete sinless. We cannot offer assurance of salvation to a professing believer whose life is characterized by persistent sin and who shows no shame for that sin or hunger for the Holy and pure things of God. They are headed for wrath and to tell them that is all ok will be to help them in their deception. David did not ask for his salvation to be restored but his joy of his salvation. We lose benefits, not salvation.

2. 1 john 2:2 - Again a person who has demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit and God’s Spirit has given witness of their Spirit can love God and find themselves slave to sin in the flesh, but the individual is tormented within because their inability to win the figh between the Spirit and the world, flesh and Satan. A person may deeply love God and be unable to show it for a period of time or even die in such state.

3. 1 john 3:8-9 Again and again – there is a huge distinction when dealing with true believers that fall into sin and unregenerate folks that have never been sealed by the Spirit of the Lord.

4. James 2:13-17 – a person who shows no compassion for people in need demonstrates that he has never responded to the great mercy of God and as an unredeemed person will received only strict judgment. James continues his tests by which we can evaluate whether our faith is living or dead.

5. Rom 6:16 and 22-23 -are those living a lifestyle of sin slaves of god or of sin? Do slaves of sin attain eternal life or the opposite, death? These verses are making contrast between believers and unbelievers.

[Christopher Chapman]

Bro david,

1. "no one who practices (habitually we might safely add) will inherit the kingdom of god". This was written to christians. "no one" is inclusive of all that do such things, whether "believers" or not. "the kingdom of god" is living in the reslm of gods reign, that includes blessings, heaven and eternal life. Those living in habitual sin are not saved! Feeling bad for sin is just worldly sorrow, not true repentance.

2. "II u love me u will obey me" ( john 14:15, 21,23) "whoever doesnt love me doesnt obey me"(john 14:24) this is jesus way of proving our love. Feeling bad without repentance is just worldly sorrow that leads to death. (2 cor 7:10) it is not the mark of a christian.

3. Again - "WHOEVER makes a practice of sin is of the devil"

4. A daed faith cant save. If our faith does not produce the coreresponding works it is dead and not able to save. The demons also believe in god, so there is not redeeming power in a mere intellectusl and emotional acceptance of gospel truths. So if a person lives a lifestyle that doesnt show a living growing faith, they are not saved.

5. Exactly, those that live in sin are not believers!!! Thats the point, the scripture makes that distiction!!! We shud never say one living in sin is a believer, cause the bible makes clear they are not!!!

Any theory that says one can live a sinful life and still go to heaven is not a biblical theory. That theory and doctrine shud be abandoned and a more biblical paradigm sought out. A paradigm that can say any person, whatever they thought, felt or confessed in the past, is not a child of god while they live a lifestyle of sin. Thet are not (in the present) people who will inherit the kingdom of god, and no matter how bad they feel they do not love god. If they are bound in sin they are not freed indeed by the son, but are slaves of sin and as slaves they will not remain in gods house. If our theory says they were never really saved, sobeit. But what we know for sure is that those that live in willful habitual sin do not have a living faith thru which they might receive the grace and salvationnof god. What they were or were not in the past is of no significance, the question is "what are they NOW"? Scripture interprets scripture, but the plain meaning of one passage never cancels out or replaces the plain meaning of another passage. If our paradigm has to remove the plain meaning of such text as we have discussed above our paradigm is not gods clear word but mans misunderstanding of it. The fact is "those living in sin are not saved". If that fact is not acknowledged from the above text and numerous others, we are willfully choosing our understanding over and above gods word. Something in our motives or heart is fighting for our understanding against the plain meaning of the text.

Again let me clarify there is a difference between being an imperfect and struggling christian, and one that has resigned to live in willfull sin. One has an advocate with the father, the other has not relationship with or faithin christ. Whatever their lips proclaim, their deeds betray them!

Gbu

[David Velasquez]

Well beloved, you wrote with such conviction and determination that even though I have responses for your above statements, I am a little hesitant to post them haha, I know that is safe to say that 90% percent of PC members believe what you believe (no I have not taken a poll, I am just throwing a number out there. I have talked to leaders and members who believe in eternal security, they just do not publicize their personal belief because it’s contrary to PC’s, which of course is not being a hypocrite, just wise). I do not want to upset the majority of the family by our continue discussions. I realize that even though we both are open to learning and we both have certainly understood each other’s stance better, why we believe what we believe, it seems that we will continue to believe as we do in reference to this secondary issue (secondary to the majority of believers, but primary to some) and the marry go around will continue on and on. I have not grown weary and I know you enough to know you enjoy this as much as I do. Love you pastor and just want everyone out there to know that we are not competing, this is not a contest. We are truly interested in edifying each other that is all. Just trying to lighten things up a little Pastor. I will respond shortly.

[Christopher Chapman]

Bro david,

U know me bro, of course we arent competing, i hope the readers see that. I just wish more people wud jump into the fray and enjoy a good wrestling match!!! Haha! its all good! No worries mate!!!

Gbu
Chris

[Christopher Chapman]

David,

U wud be sorely dissappointed in me if i didnt speak with such conviction and determination!!! Haha! U know i love u! And u know i will hav responses for ur responses!!! Haha!!! LOL!!!

Gbu as always
Chris

[David Velasquez]

Can a false conversion look genuine? It can look extremly genuine. So much so that Godly man can be fooled and that is no easy task for God gives us insight into the human condition of a person.

Can a Genuine Convert at times act like a false convert? Haven't we all done this in our own walk?

so where are we going with this? What are we examining here beyond the questions you asked bro?