If you cannot love an eternal torment god - (the first 500 years after Christ)

[Rodger Tutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire...

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian

Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[Rodger Tutt]

THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

I believe that the strongest influence will prevail every time WITHOUT EXCEPTION

When it comes to what we believe, the strongest sets of influence always dictate what all of us choose every time without exception. It is impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The actual choosing of it proves that we prefer it, even though we may be attracted to a different influence to a lesser degree.

The strongest influence may be a combination of the influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought to bear upon us right now. But in the final analysis, the strongest influence always prevails every time. For example, try to believe differently than you do now. You can't can you? That's because there are influences so strong that they prevent you from thinking any differently than you do. Same thing goes for me, and the same thing goes for everyone.

I am so glad that I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and because of what Christ accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.
As my 96 year old dad says, "That's what makes Him God."

Concordant Christians believe that it is God's decretive will (that which MUST occur) that because we are all sinners by nature and cannot help but sin (which means miss the mark) because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, we will all violate His preceptive will (that which we OUGHT to do) as much as we actually do. I believe that God justly imposes accountability on everyone even though they cannot help but do what they do, because through His intimate sovereign control of how far He lets everyone get involved in sinning and suffering (until He intervenes for each one by His sovereign grace) God is going to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that is uniquely applied to each individual. Contrary to what many people think, this does not cause us to live careless sinful lives because we love, and very much want to please a God like this.

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.
Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

You can Google up THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN

A few Concordant websites are
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.saviourofall.org
http://gtft.org/
http://gtft.org/Library/index1.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

I think that ETers (eternal tormentors) who think it is right, and good, and just, and loving, and merciful, for God to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of never-ending suffering forever, or be annihilated, will choose to believe any and all evidences that seem to support the belief that the Bible teaches that perception of what God is like.

But URs (universal reconciliationists) who thinks it is right, and good, and just, and loving, and merciful, for God to successfully influence people so they will not suffer forever, will choose to believe any and all evidences that support the belief that the Bible teaches that perception of what God is like.

As far as I am concerned, you tell me which perception of God you see in the Bible, and I will know what kind of person you are, regardless of how impeccably righteous the behavior of the rest of your life may appear. But even though I may perceive you as being chosen by God to be a vessel of the grossest dishonor, I also believe that God will refashion you into a vessel of honor after your resurrection from the dead.

I repeat, the strongest sets of influences will always dictate what we choose to believe, every time, without exception. This is an irrefutable truth. The strongest influence may consist of all the influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought to bear upon us right now. But the strongest influence will cause us to choose in that direction EVERY TIME.

You have to believe what you believe, and so do I. Having examined the evidences that are available to us, we are both just as convinced that we are believing the absolute truth, and we will both probably die believing the way that we do now. We will all try to influence others as much as we feel we should, but within the wise counsel of His decretive will (that which MUST occur), God will decide how successful we will be.

In my life the strongest influence is the many pages of evidence that is contained in the tentmaker search engine about what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches. See the search engine at the top of the front page at TENTMAKER
You can Google it up. Or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/

Type in any key word or phrase from any argument and access to ten articles will appear that refute the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on, and so on, for many pages.

It was this information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown, 1966-78, (I'm 70 now). And it gives me great pleasure to keep learning that more and more people are being helped by this same information.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
"That God may be All in all" 1Cor.15:28

[David Velasquez]

like i said - we keep going around and around and around - until one of us gets tire of posting, at least i give you new responses 99% of the time hahahaah but you keep posting the same sad list of web sites. you shared the below respond already about 5 times haahahaha

[Rodger Tutt]

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM

GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html

IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

[Rodger Tutt]

Notice the name Ray Prinzing towards the bottom of the list on the link on my last post called
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING

Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them several times, and 23 of them many times

In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 96 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 70 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

J. Preston Eby was a good friend of Ray Prinzing. They frequently quoted each other in their writings. Read what J. Preston Eby wrote about this subject. Copy and paste into Google
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? or click on
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

The entire series of fifteen chapters by J. Preston Eby on this subject can be accessed at
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

His writing specifically on universal transformation is at
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm
see especially the very last paragraph in that article

[David Velasquez]

There is no official "Universal Salvation Church" denomination but there is a Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA). The UUA can be classified as non-Christian because it denies the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, etc.

It is not possible to categorize all of universalists into one tidy doctrinal category. Its adherents vary in belief. Some are Arian (God is one person, Jesus is a creation). Some are Trinitarian. Others even lean toward new age concepts of man's divinity.

So, universalism is not really a doctrine that identifies a group. Rather, it is a doctrine of different, even contradictory groups, who all claim universalism.


you often site the differences between the Christians denomenations and yet your group is just as divided, if not more then those groups under the Christian banner.

[Rodger Tutt]

The one thing we universalist all have in common is that we all believe that sooner or later God is going to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills.

http://www.godfire.net/eby/restitution.html
especially see the very last paragraph
and
http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

[David Velasquez]

The problem with words
The cults are particularly guilty of using biblical words with non-biblical definitions. This is absolutely necessary among them in order to maintain some sort of internal consistency of theology. So too, with many universalists. Hell can mean non-existence, after-life consciousness, or this present life on earth. Some universalists believe that all punishment is accomplished here on earth, while others believe it is future event with a loss of rewards, and not a physical punishment. The punishment in both groups is corrective and limited. It will last only as long, and only be as severe, as it takes to accomplish its corrective purpose, which is to bring all mankind to a state of holiness and happiness in obedience to God. Of course, the problem with this is that it strongly suggests that a person is made worthy to be with God through his own sufferings and corrections in the afterlife.

In universalism, the word "eternal" means "without end" when it comes to salvation, but not when referring to damnation, even though the same word is used for both and in the same context (Matt. 25:46). Universalists divide history and the future into different "eons" or "ages" and assert that punishment is "age-lasting," not eternal. The term "Son of God" is claimed by all groups as an accurate description of Jesus, yet to some it means a created being and to others it means God in flesh. Therefore, determining which belief is held by which universalist is often difficult and it requires digging.http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/universalism

[Rodger Tutt]

You said "In universalism, the word "eternal" means "without end" when it comes to salvation, but not when referring to damnation, even though the same word is used for both and in the same context (Matt. 25:46)."

This is simply not true.

Here is our position on Matt. 25:46
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

BTW CARM won't even allow universalists to present their arguments on their forum.
Here is how we have refuted the arguments of Matt Slick, the owner of CARM.

http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/Exposing.html

http://scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html

[Rodger Tutt]

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/

[David Velasquez]

It has become evident that you are not concerned with converts to Christ. You as all unis are concerned about converts to universalism -- which you called "the truth." Itis not Jesus who is the truth, or coming to Jesus as Savior that is the truth. Instead, "the truth" according to you is universalism. This approaches idolatry.

[Rodger Tutt]

Read this, especially the very last paragraph of that link, and tell me if you still think the same as you expressed in your last post.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-saved.htm

BTW, The entire fifteen chapters on the subject can be accessed at
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm