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If you cannot love an eternal torment god - (the first 500 years after Christ)
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE
The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.
The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.
The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”
To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.
What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!
Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.
Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire...
You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian
Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES
Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.
Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.
I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE
The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.
The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.
The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”
To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.
What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!
Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.
Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire...
You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in
kolasis aionian
Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES
Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.
Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.
I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on -
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 70 years old
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 70 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.
You can access my website through Google by typing in hope4you rodger tutt, or
My website is http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.
BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/is_hell_eternal_inde...
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on -
I spend the time to read all you shared above and I appreciate the fact that you are free to believe what you want to believe, because God allows his creation such freedom. I do not ever want to be offensive, but in this case and in view of your distorted view of scripture, some of my statements maybe offensive to you. Please understand that this is not a personal attack to you, I do not know you. I do feel bad that you are a senior citizen who at your age should have acquired wisdom through the knowledge of God's word. However you are believing and teaching heresy of the worst kind. I visited most of the pages you mentioned up above and they are full of false doctrine, full of Satan's deception. The document found on http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html may sounds extremely reviling to those who do not have a grasp of ecclesiastical history, but to anyone with some back ground in the subject it is easy to pick out the discrepancies and the numerous unreliable sources the writer is calling attention to, to back up his false doctrine. The claim of the writer to show how Christianity has been influence by pagan and Greek philosophy is preposterous to say the least.
How can one ignore the reality of Hell and use one of God's attributes to do so (love) when no other than Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else. The original Greek and Hebrew back up the Arminian and Calvinist believes of hell, for it is biblical. The statement that the early church fathers believed in Universal salvation is a HUMONGOUS LIE. NO SUCH BLAPHEMY HAS BEEN BELIEVED BY ANY REAL CHURCH FATHER.
Do I sound mad or angry with my response; yeah I am a little upset at such horrible interpretations of God’s revealed character and word. Again am not agry at you, for you have obviously been fool by the teachers of this false doctrine and you think you are serving God in sharing such a lie, but like Paul persecuted the church, believing he was serving God, so are you serving Satan, thinking you are serving God.
The arguments about universal salvations are founded in disbelieve that a loving God will send people to hell.
This erroneous heresy is completely oblivious to God's Holiness and justice and only sees a Good loving God, according to the propaganda of the doctrine.
This is the worst kind of evil. To teach something that the bible does not teach.
The statement below is a perfect example of the ignorance of biblical doctrine being taught by the doctrine you hold.
HOW MEN ARE SAVED
It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam departed from Eden. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than five billion were saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty-five billions (155,000,000,000) who went down into death without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? To these questions, which every thinking Christian asks himself, and yearns to see answered truthfully, and in harmony with the character of God, comes a variety of answers:-
The above statements are so boldly showing the immense ignorance of those teaching such a silly lie that it’s extremely easy to debunk such foolishness. The bible clearly teaches in Romans Chapter 1 and 2 how God deals with men in different times in different ways. God is just and He will not send anyone to hell who never heard of his son, he deals them according to their conscience and not according to the Gospel. Those who do what is right according to the light God has provided to them in a specific time and space are his and those who boldly go against his enlighten, whether such inlightment is through the word, the written law or the law of the conscience will be punished.
GOD IS NOT ONLY LOVE NOR Does THAT LOVE TRUMP ALL THE OTHER ATTRIBUTES HE POSSESES. HE IS HOLY, HOLY, HOLY AND HATES SIN ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE AND HE IS JUST AND WILL ALLOW HUMANITY TO BE ETERNALLY SEPERATED FROM HIM IS HE SO WISHES.
I DO NOT CARE IF YOU ARE 70 OR 120 OR 30 YEARS OLD, YOUR BELIEVE IS WRONG AND IT CAN EASILY BE PROVEN WRONG IN LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE. THOSE TEACHING SUCH A DISTORTION ARE HEADING TO HELL, SO STOP DOING IT AND REPENT, OR YOU WILL FIND YOURSELF IN THE PLACE YOU SO EAGERLY BELIEVE NOT TO EXIST. YOU WILL BE IN HELL IF YOU DO NOT PICK UP THE BIBLE AND READ IT ASKING GOD TO LEAD YOU TO ALL TRUTH. IGNORE WHAT ALL MEN ARE SAYING ABOUT THE WORD (EVEN WHAT I HAVE STATED) AND GET IN THE WORD YOUR SELF. ASKED GOD TO GUIDE YOU AND TO TEACH YOU BY THE SPIRIT WHAT TRUTH IS AND NOT WHAT TRUTH IS ACCORDING TO SO AND SO... AND THEN GET BACK TO M E AND TELL ME HOW MEN ARE SAVED AND IF HELL IS REAL OR NOT, NOT ACCORDING TO A FEEL GOOD GOSPEL THAT TICKLES THE EARS OF SOME LISTENIG SUCH AS THE HERESY OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION.
I PRAY YOU ARE WISE ENOUGH AND MAN ENOUGH TO TAKE THE CHALLENGE OF LEAVING BEHIND THE TEAHCINGS OF MEN AND SEEK GOD IN THESE MATTERS. IF YOU CONTINUE TO TEACH THE LIE YOU BELIEVE YOU WILL FIND YOUR SELF IN THE VERY PLACE YOU DON'T BELIEVE.
IF YOU LIKE- WE CAN GO THROUGH EACH VERSE BACKING UP YOUR BELIEVE SYSTEM AND WE THEN WILL SEE WHAT THE BIBLE REALY TEACHES. MOST OF THE THINGS YOU SHARED ARE NOT BACK UP BY SCRIPTURE, RATHER THEY ARE BACK UP BY EMOTIONS AND UNBELIEVE THAT A HOLY, JUST AND LOVING GOD CAN ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE APART FROM HIM. HE HIMSELF SAID THAT HELL WAS PREPARED FOR THE FALLEN ANGELS BUT IF MEN WANT TO GO THERE INSTEAD OF REPENTING OF THEIR SINS AND ACCEPTING CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR THEN THEY CAN GO THERE. HAVE YOU ACCEPTED CHRIST AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR, DO YOU SPEND TIME IN HIS WORD OR ARE YOU SIMPLY BRAIN WASHED, NOT BY GOD'S WORD -WIHICH WOULD BE A GOOD THING - BUT BY THE TEACHINGS OF FALSE TEACHERS WHO TICKLE YOUR EARS?
GOD BLESS YOU AND MAY YOU GET AN UNQUENCHABLE HUNGER TO READ GOD'S WORD.
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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SPECIFIC RESPONSE TO "GET BACK TO ME AND TELL ME HOW MEN ARE SAVED"
according to the Bible
SEE THIS LINK
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
THE TRUTH ABOUT “HELL”
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
People who want to keep believing in the doctrine of "endless hell" will not read the following articles.
But people who don't want to believe that the Bible teaches "endless hell" will read all four of them and will be filled with great joy at finding out the truth!
(If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your address bar.)
What Jesus really taught about "hell."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
What the Bible really teaches about "hell."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever...
Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven
or
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
or
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD
Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.
It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliatio...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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THE ALL-IMPORTANT KEY ISSUE
The true meaning of “FOREVER AND EVER”
Greek: tormented "for the ages of the ages" a limited period of time referring to the last two ages before God consummates His plan for the ages of time to become All in all 1Cor. 15:28. How do we know that? See further on in this message.
All of these combinations are used in the Bible: aion (singular), aions (plural), aion of the aion (singular/singular), aion of the aions (singular/plural), aions of the aions (plural/plural), and aionian (the adjective).
ALL of them refer to a limited period of time.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all.
See
Copy and paste into Google
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml
Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
and
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
"THE EONS OF THE EONS" (plural/plural) COMPARED WITH "THE HOLIES OF THE HOLIES" (plural/plural)
There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.
While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies."
Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).
According to the Bible any "hell" will be "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker books chapter eleven
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
Copy and paste into Google
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Each person, infant or adult, stands guilty before God; each person has offended the holiness of God. The only way God can be just and at the same time declare a person righteous is for that person to have received forgiveness by faith in Christ. Christ is the only way. John 14:6 records what Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me.” Also, Peter states in Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Salvation is an individual choice.
With the above in mind, also consider this: Christ's death is presented as sufficient for all of mankind. First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus' death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.
Although it is possible that God applies Christ's payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy. It is our position that God applies Christ's payment for sin to young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior, but again we cannot be dogmatic. Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good.
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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THE SALVATION OF CHILDREN
Evangelicals are divided in their opinion about the fate of children who die.
Calvinists, who believe in God’s sovereign election of the “few”, also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. John Calvin said, “there are babies a span long in hell”.
Arminians (free willers) consider this unfair, and assert that children who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It’s true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that her two infants (according to Arminian theology) will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Arminian Christians (free willers) believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this “the age of accountability”.
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn’t matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don’t try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong * (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies’ eternal salvation. If Arminian Christians are right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of “saving souls”. Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause. Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of Arminian Christians) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say “I have saved my self from hell by exercising my faith in God’s provision.” God will get all of the glory for everyone’s salvation.
The important issue never should be “what is right or what is wrong”. The only really important issue is, “What is God going to do with the person who is wrong?!” The Scriptures teach that God will fit everyone of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 96 year old Dad often says, “That’s what makes Him God!”
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective “soul-savers” in the world, why do Arminian evangelicals get so upset with them?!
* Evangelicals kills others in war for less worthy causes than trying to save their souls.
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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THE CONSEQUENSES OF ETERNAL TORMENT TEACHING
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
As I have mentioned many times on forums, I, Rodger Tutt, had a complete nervous twelve year breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love or respect an endless - hell god. (I’m 70) My breakdown was caused by my fear of what God might do to me since I was unable to love or respect Him.
One of the great comforts that helped me to recover was learning that many other people have suffered with the same problem. The following quote is from THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.
First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833: “The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell.”
Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:
“Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be ****ed. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?” End of Quote.
Note that the victims of this theology found no consolation in the Christian gospel. This was my problem too! The question I kept asking myself was, “How can I find comfort in the Christian Gospel when I can’t even love or respect it’s God?”
In my library, I have several dozens of books, most of which I have read, and several hundred cassettes, by 29 different speakers, all of which I have listened to, some of them many times, by men who believe that the Bible (correctly translated) teaches universal transformation; that is, that God will eventually change all suffering into something better that it happened. These books and tapes answer, many times over, the arguments that I have read in seven, (plus parts of other) books in support of the idea that the Bible teaches never ending suffering for part of God’s creation.
In addition to these sources, Hurley Books, Westmoreland, New Hampshire, lists 463 universalist books that can be purchased from them. It will be a comfort to many, as it was to me, to learn that there are so many people who see this kind of God in the Bible.
It is my great joy in life to make this information available to many people via forums and emails. God will use all my efforts as He sees fit. In this great truth I relax! SEE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.
Also see the testimonies at
http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html
Also see
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html
(copy and paste into browser address bar)
SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Understanding%20Universal%20Salvati...
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/fewsaved.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm
I'm 70, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.
I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) because of my inability to love an endless-hell god. I’m 70 now.
If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines.
Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.
http://www.tentmaker.org/
Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.
This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.
If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.
But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.
I am a Concordant Christian. I have read and recorded gleanings into my more than four thousand page personal journal from most of the back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES that has been published back to 1909. Every argument that I have ever heard against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been repeatedly dealt with in these magazines.
http://www.concordant.org/unsearchable/UnsearchableRiches.html
Largely, but not exclusively, because of the contents in these magazines, I am convinced that the evidence in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation is irrefutable. That is why the argument that we should teach endless suffering in hell just in case it might be true is unacceptable to me. IMHO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in "eternal suffering" for anyone and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.
Here are several Concordant websites.
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.saviourofall.org/
http://gtft.org/
http://www.tentmaker.org/
Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html
I also would like to leave you with one more link. I am going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
It may begin to change your thinking.
The url of my own site is
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
God bless you in your study!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY
A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)
The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”
I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”
He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”
I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”
He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”
I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”
He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”
I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”
I don’t think he thought it was funny.
I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”
It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.
I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.
Just Google up TENTMAKER and use the search engine at the top of the front page. Type in a key word from any argument or Bible verse and ten articles will appear refuting the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.
http://www.tentmaker.org/
Also Google up
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
to find A LOT of scriptural evidence that God has both the ability and the intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. Or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
or
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
or
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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please explain to me what all the scriptures below mean? "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement" is that what the scriptures below are talking about?
Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.
Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
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Permalink Reply by Rodger Tutt on
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SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD
Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm
We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.
It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
Type into Google
The lake of fire Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliatio...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
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Verse: John 3:16; Jn 3:16; John 3
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